Obnoxious

[maderr]

Sammikins pointed me to this post and of course we both agree it's rather pretentious. We are nothing if not opionated, for better or worse.

But I still maintain the questions are rather obnoxious. Especially when you tout that you write fantasy. Seriously. People don't think, or they try too hard not to be racist or whatever, and forget they're supposed to be writing a story first and foremost, not a lesson on morals and ethics and whatall. A good story says something by being what it is. Cramming in irrelevant Issues ruins a story; it doesn't make it stronger.

Sammie says it better (and in the morning I will link it properly, but for now her internet hates her). But let us answer the questions, just for the hell of it.

How culturally diverse are your stories?

Depends on the story, doesn't it? I mean I try to keep in mind that cultures vary, but my worlds are not the world I live in, so right there everything changes. But Sandstorm? LG? Pretty damn diverse I'd say, but that's only because it's pretty damn relevant to said stories. Sandstorm especially there is significance to the regarding of each other as 'savages' and 'heathens'. LG too has some relevance, though not in the same way.
Prisoner is another prime example of the difference in cultures mattering a metric fuckton. Kidnapped is another one.

But other stories it doesn't fucking matter. To hold most of my fairytales to the same standards, in this respect, to those mentioned above would be stupid. There is zero need for cultural diversity in, say, Deceived.


- Do you use accents for foreigners? (Are they any good?)

No. In general, I loathe despise and detest the writing out of accents. It's jarring, annoying, and seldom done well. I attempted to write an accent once, and I think I did it well, but it's not an experiment I'm likely to repeat. I remember a rule my one writing class mentioned -- if you want to convey an accent, do it for the first paragraph or three, then stop. You will have established it, the reader will 'hear' it, no need to keep torturing their eyeballs.

And anyway, what does it matter? Having said I hate them, and that I was taught not to do it, it's largely a stylistic choice isn't it? I happen to hate first person nine times out of ten, but that doesn't mean it's a bad choice. I think the same largely applies to accents.

Though having said that I really don't think it's a good idea in fantasy. Hard enough to convey the pretty images in your head without expecting people to hear your voices the way you do. That's expecting too much, I think. Stick with descriptions. Otherewise I'll do what I've done a thousand times -- throw the book back on the shelf, condemned the fantasy section to the depths of hell, and go to scope out the pr0n.

I think I'm wandering from the point. Moving on.

- Are foreigners used for comedic purposes?

What the fuck is this supposed to mean? I'm allowed to make fun of Americans but no one else? Brits are no longer allowed to mock us? Where's the fun in that? I think my favorite part of the movie Love Actually is when...Colin? goes to America. It's fracking hysterical. And again, if we're writing fantasy - this is irrelevant. Obviously not everyone writes fantasy, but still -- there's no point including 'cultural diversity' if you can't poke fun at it.

- Do you use other settings/worlds, or usually only the city/town/country you live in?

Again with the 'depends on the story'. What the hell is wrong with any of the above options?

Have I mentioned these questions are fucking asinine?


- Do most of your stories contain Caucasian people?

This questions almost offends me, except I have to laugh in the end. I really do not think of skin color, except insofar as it would be affected by the environment, society, whether or not one is descended from a god, or from which planet one hails.

Hell, Sammie said it best. This is slash -- if anyone is overused to death, it's the poor Asians. I can't count the number of psuedo-Japanese/Chinese/other pretty boys running around in Slashland.


- What religions do you incorporate into your stories? What is the one that pops up the most?

Obnoxious obnoxious obnoxious. If you're writing a fucking period/contemporary piece, then it totally fucking depends on what your'e doing. If you're writing a story about witches, well there you go - some permutation of that. If we're writing about something that takes place during the Spanish Inquisition, I doubt Mormons are involved. So this is stupid and tasteless in that respect. wholly unfair a thing by which to judge, since any story with a real world setting will be restricted by said setting.

If you're writing fantasy, then the question is void. I understand drawing upon existant religions, of course, but I tend to start largely from scratch.


In some, these things are as obnoxious as I thought. They seem more concerned with proving they're not racist or evil but in fact insightful and meaningful and what the fuck all ever.

Me, I'm not delusional, though I am melodramatic and far too opionated. What I write is not literature in any way shape or form. I would never presume. There are things I want to convey, sure, but I'd rather just know I made someone happy.

I should probably go to bed now.

Comments

[hayama-sb.livejournal.com]

The P.C. Police strikes again!

[graphitesmudges.livejournal.com]

O_________________O is all I can say. >.> In a way, that post is both annoying and obscenely hilarious. You guys are making me see the world in a new light. Really.

[cairnsy.livejournal.com]

Those are obnoxious questions. Also, the 'how many different Caucasian people' question is one people ONLY ever ask white people. It's ok if someone of a particular race or colour writes characters only of that particular race/colour just as long as they're not a white person writing about white people. You don't often hear people complaining about the lack of diversity in anime and manga, for one ;)

That said, I think diversity is great in stories and - depending on the setting/type of story - really adds to the overall story by having a more realistic and real feel, but I think at times double standards apply - the same goes with religion. Christianity = bad, an other religion = insightful and clever. I get really sick of that view point, and I'm an atheist!

Please don't kill me?

[skylark97.livejournal.com]

Well...it did get discussion going in that comm, so it served a purpose in a way? Although, yes, I will agree that the tone of the questions is kind of irritating and obnoxious.

I mean, if they'd asked something like, 'When you're writing, how do you go about researching the cultures you're writing?' 'If you're writing fantasy, how do you distinguish between countries and races, and do you pull from cultures in the real world to do so, or do you make up your own cultures that are unique to your worlds?' 'Do you only feel comfortable writing from cultures that you're the most familiar with, or can you branch out and pull from other places?'

I confess, sometimes I'm curious as hell as to how you come about creating your universes. Like what kind of research did you do for Sandstorm? Did you do any, or is it stuff that you've just gleaned over the years? Lost Gods, pulled from at least four different cultures, and you always have a running theme of names in foreign languages standing for certain things that embody a trait of the character. Did the name come first, or did the language that the name is in? And in LG, was it the name that determined what you'd draw from, or was it that you thought, 'hm, Russian/Japanese/French/German and then pulled names after that? (Hmm, this is degenerating into me just asking questions about how you build your worlds, but essentially, it's all kind of the same thing, isn't it?)

I get what you're saying. And yeah, when you toss in fantasy, it gets to be a bit of a free for all. But you make your stories culturally diverse and you pull from any and every culture you think of or that grabs your attention to create your fantasy worlds. That you do it without putting conscious thought into making a story culturally diverse and still have a huge spectrum of characters from all sorts of backgrounds is pretty fucking cool, but I don't know that your ability extends to the vast majority of people that are say, writing white suburban high school stories on FP. ;3 Hell, I'm hard pressed to think of how many characters of mine aren't generically white because it's just the easiest default for me (I'm sure that if I were Black or Hispanic or Indian, those would be the defaults for me. I mean, you write what you know, especially if you don't want to screw it up or are too lazy to do the research as I often am...^_^;;).

In the end though, I think the whole thing is more of a nod to how good a writer you are and how good you are at creating interesting and unique worlds then it is about how PC you may or may not be. Pulling from different cultures and different races makes a world more unique, gives it more texture and just makes it more interesting to read. Having different perspectives from different cultural backgrounds within a story gives it depth. But that's a nod to skill, not a nod to being the 'PC' kind of back patter, you know? If you're writing about the Spanish Inquisition, you want to be able to show how your characters are caught between two clashing cultures in which one is violently trying to subjugate the other. But again, that's more about skill then it really is about being culturally conscious.

Ah, and I get the feeling mine might be the opposing opinion, so take it in the nature it's given? ^_^;;

[rykaine.livejournal.com]

In the end, I think you wound up saying it better. And hey, you took the time to actually answer the stupid questions.

Re: Please don't kill me?

[skylark97.livejournal.com]

I can't count the number of psuedo-Japanese/Chinese/other pretty boys running around in Slashland.

Although, yes, I will totally agree with you that there are a lot of those running around. >_> And not the cool kind, the stupid 2D stereotypes...

Accents are always a bad idea too. You usually manage to get across differences in tone or the language you use. That's where it is supposed to come across. Not in accents. -_- That was just an idiot question. And most of the questions were idiot questions that could have been phrased and written and conceived of a hell of a lot better than they were.

[mechante-fille.livejournal.com]

While I don't think the questions are headed towards being taken seriously by a professional writing community (which, yes, we aspire to, but which ahgayfiction... ain't), I did not read as much judgment into the questions as it seems you did. As rather neutral questions for us to take as we want, they don't seem quite as bad. I don't know how the new mod meant them, but I would venture to guess that the person was interested in introducing our self-awareness of cultural awareness in our writing as the topic. I think that cultural awareness is a good thing, and that some people need it. I don't think that the answers to those questions necessarily point to our level of cultural awareness, for many of the reasons that you pointed out.

In the end, though, it is just the first questions from a brand-new mod, who is possibly just some kid, and it actually managed to generate more participation in the comm that it has had in more than a year. Perhaps he or she will come up with a better set of questions next time.

Actually, I think any of those questions on their own could have been interesting. Such as the accents. Do you use accents? Do you think accents should be spelled out? Neutral questions that offer it up for discussion and then people can say why they do or don't, or why they love or hate to read them. Or what the 'experts' in the books and classes say. Without it being about judging.

Re: Please don't kill me?

[rykaine.livejournal.com]

I don't know. You don't sound like the opposing voice, so much as the voice who should've been asking the questions to begin with.

The questions your asking make sense. They're concern is with the actual world/character-building. How do you decide the things you do; how do you create the people/religions/cultures that you do; how can you possibly manage to keep it all straight?

The actual questions posted to the comm seem more concerned with the author's "cultural awareness".

And answers like this: I am African American. The novel that I have completed and the one on which I have begun work feature primarily African American characters. However even some of my black characters come from places other than the US so there is french and spanish. There is one white character is the first work, and in so far in the second two--one is an Italian American. Both works go to other places--cities and countries an both explore varied spiritual practices---

As an African American I believe that I have an obligation to capture the multiple textures of that experience and when one adds sexuality to the mix, the tapestry is incredible.

Make that intent seem doubly so. Which I'm sorry, that just makes me roll my eyes and want to smack someone. Or maybe that conservativism showing...

[alixkat.livejournal.com]

That's someone who just took a postcolonial literature/theory class and who thinks that they know fucking everything about "brown" and "white" and the "other" and all that other bullshit that goes with postcolonial theory.

I would tell them to go fuck themselves with a wooden spoon and come see me later when they have an original thought in their head and aren't playing pseudointellectual whorebag for the day.

X-Posted to rykaine

Re: Please don't kill me?

[skylark97.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's a writing comm, not a political forum. So the questions should be geared more towards how you can expand your horizons as a writer than about how good you are at patting yourself on the back. I mean, a part of me identifies with her, because at 19 I probably was her, but there's a time, a place, and a way to do it. Some of figuring that out comes with maturity, some of it is just learning how not to alienate everyone with your idealism.

You know me, I tend to come from the more liberal end of the spectrum. ;3 (It's part of why I like being friends with you so much because you do make me stop and think and give me a fresh perspective.) And in that respect, I do think that it's important to be aware of different cultures and making sure that you're stepping outside of your cultural comfort zone. It's important to be able to push your own boundaries and try to understand things that are foreign to you, because I just think it helps to make you a better person. Diversity is something to be embraced. Whites get ragged on because they're the majority and it's our culture that is the most prevalent in everything. It's middle class white Christian American values that are viewed as the values that everyone else should aspire to in our society. Doesn't mean that they're bad values or that there's something wrong with white Christian Americans, just that you don't want the only thing you see reflected back at you in the world to be that, because it's not an accurate reflection of the world. (Especially seeing as how in one out of every ten counties in the US, the minorities are the majority these days...)

But writing is a highly personal thing, and you guys are completely right in that you can't force the issue to be a part of your story if it doesn't fit with the plot and the characters. I think being culturally aware and aware of what culture you're coming from and what cultures your readers might be coming from is important because it helps you expand the worlds in which you're writing and makes your writing more accessible to more people and more interesting to your readers. And hey, inspiration takes all kinds of faces, and there are so many fun archetypes and mythological figures and customs to be pulled from cultures that you aren't familiar with. It's a playground to be played in. It's important to dive into all those different cultures because it just gives you more to work with and to write with and explore. It has nothing to do with being political or beating someone over the head with a black and white idea of how the world works.

Hmm...which probably all means that yes, I got to the exact same place you and M did with this, just by a different route? XD

[minni.livejournal.com]

I like that. Just how culturally diverse are you allowed to be in fantasy? I've got a bunch of Elves running around based off of Native American tribes, is that diverse enough? How about people who aren't human?

Then too, there's a lot of diversity within Caucasions. You're not going to be able to mix the Polish with the Portugese, because even though both are Caucasion they have different cultures with different history, different languages, and different traditions.

About the accents though, I really think that's kind of up in the air. It's a literary device that some people can do and some people can't. It's not just the accents, it's also the speech pattern, isn't it? I've used accents to highlight the difference between the speech of a slums/ghetto orphaned gutter rat and her higher-classed peers - different classes can be as foreign as an entirely different nation, can't they?

[alice_montrose]

Oh gods, not another one of these "studies". I mean, who the hell cares how many Caucasians I have and what religions I use? Geez... next thing we know, they'll be asking if all the characters have been raised by functional white heterosexual families, or something.

I thank the Gods of Fantasy or not having to worry about this stuff. fantasy is fun. You can make up your own world and no one should be the wiser.

[lynnette-lacy.livejournal.com]

It surprised me to hear that you do not consider what you write literature. As you know, I am a huge fan and get a great deal of enjoyment out of your fiction, but I also respect your pieces as the future of writing. I especially like your fairy tales which are new and creative and yet keep the original morals. I like that they introduce the possibility of same sex relationships as if it is no big deal. I can see myself telling these stories to my children and using them to make it perfectly clear to them that love in any form is a beautiful thing. These will be the new classics! Your work is inspired and the worlds you create are so vivid and relevant to our times. In today's day and age we deal with this stuff all the time. War, racism, the ethical treatment of living things that are different from us. We face these in our everyday life. Even simple concepts of "don't believe everything you hear" and "love never fails" are explored throughout your work and have real literary merit. Novels that feature same sex couples that are not just trashy romance novels are not very popular or mainstream yet... but they will be, I just know it (then again, I may just be a blind optimist) and you and your circle of friends are leading the way for this new genre! I see the future in your work and it gives me hope for a better world.

[flamebyrd]

I must confess, sometimes I do consciously try to add characters from different cultural backgrounds, partially because a) I find it interesting (a few units in my degree focussed on transnational culture and immigrant identities), and partially because, yes, I do worry that I default to white middle-class characters. I... I blame university?

- Do you use other settings/worlds, or usually only the city/town/country you live in?

Now, this is interesting... because I don't, in that I tend to default to pseudo-American settings. When I set something in a pseudo-Australian setting (or even pseudo-Perth) I consider it unusual.

[broken-moons.livejournal.com]

Hm. Some of those questions could have been phrased better, and being fantasy writers sort of gives us leave to ignore it, anyway. The only universal answer is one you've given: it depends.
The Windserpent Saga, I would say is pretty diverse, but that's mainly because I liked playing with the many different cultures and mythologies.
I like the way you do it in Lost Gods (and even better in Prisoner), but I'm sure there will be people to say, accusingly, "Ah, but there aren't any coloured people in it, are there? Are there?". In my opinion, such people can be ignored :)

Also, literature. My own personal view is that literature is stuff that makes good reading (like your stories) and Literature is what the experts say should make good reading. Because if our fiction isn't literature, what are we going to call it? (Well, you could choose from things like narrative, fiction or worse, genre fiction, etc.) I guess I just don't agree with the way most of the world classifies writing.

Oh, and accents - I only do it with Conaire, and I try not to make it too obnoxious (like Fleur's accent the way JKR writes it), and go for an Irish-ish sentence structure rather than mangling words. Writing him, though, made me remember why I don't usually do it. It's a pain to write, and no guarantees it comes across as natural on the reader, either.

[charisstoma.livejournal.com]

Ok, I had a really nice comment here but I pushed a button and it all went away. grrr. recap.
Writers are artists. Unless it's a writing exercise, you put what you want in your work of art. Imagine a painter in oils being told that there's not enough diversity on their canvas. The stories created should reflect what the writer wants to be there to fulfill whatever the aim of the story is.
You are all more eloquent then I am. *points up*.
Maderr: Spanish Inquisition and Mohammedan. Mormons=Utah. It was a nice light giggle moment in the midst of seriousness. I enjoyed it. Thanks.

[thealisonbailey.livejournal.com]

Every time I've started to write about the diversity in Wanted, I've stopped myself 'cause it seems obnoxious. ("Yes, look at me, I'm so great, blah blah blah...") It's kinda like doing good deeds: you should do them just to do them, not so you can tell everyone about it and have them praise you.

If they'd have stopped with their first question ("How culturally diverse are your stories?"), I think all would have been well and good. But, I think they're like me and have a problem with over explaining. On the right community though, this could have been an eye-opener for the people who write -- as skylark97 put it -- "white suburban high school stories on FP." Hey wait, there is more to the world! And writing about the rest of the world makes your stories more relatable to the rest of us! Boy howdy!

[marasmine.livejournal.com]

I read the questions as more of a wake up call for those writers of "white suburban high school stories on FP" (that skylark so aptly named) than PC demands to be imposed on all writers. My first thought was that they were aimed at young teenagers with the selfish tunnel vision that characterises those years.
Generally: I try to avoid accents because they are a pain to write. I avoid in depth religion discussions - unless it is a religion I made up myself and is central to the plot - usually religion doesn't come into the story for me because I don't feel that I should stomp around on other people's beliefs, and I don't feel that I understand any religion well enough to use it in a story. Same goes for cultural diversity - if I haven't lived as a black, Jewish, lesbian single mother with a severe disability, I don't feel I can make her a central character because I wouldn't be able to do her problems justice! And there is nothing worse than writing another culture badly - being ignored is always better than being mis-represented! My characters tend to be white-ish and live in a temperate climate, but their skin colour is normally only used for contrast with their partner or to set off their eyes or hair!
But I might write about any of that when it is translated into my own fantasy world - because then I do know enough about it to write without offending anyone! And perhaps that is why I write fantasy by preference - no particularly deep research needed and I can argue my interpretation against anyone. I write stories. I am aiming at light entertainment not deeply moving, life altering prose or Literature. I would hate for anything of mine to be required reading anywhere!