Yes, I know I'm not being very mature

[maderr]

But I don't care. I do not like being called racist, I do not like seeing my sister called racist, and I wholly resent the idea that because I'm white I am by default racist and have no ethnicity, culture, and whatever all else of my own. Apparently because I'm white, I'm exactly like all the other white people around the world.

The source of my ire is here

In light of all this, Sammikins says the reason I can't write is the utter lack of diversity of my stories. Too many white people. She suggests writing something ethnic to cleanse my spirit.

I asked if Sandstorm smut qualified as ethnic. She says yes, but I have to include lots more races.

Ryokai!

Comments

[cairnsy.livejournal.com]

I get so sick of being told that because I'm white not only do I not have any culture, I'm not ALLOWED to, either.

Last semester I had to do a research proposal and ethics presentation for a research topic of my choice (this is in Psychology). Awesome project, and while we didn't end up doing the research ourselves, it was a great introduction to what we'll be doing in postgrad. Anyway, what I wanted to do was a research project investigating the affect the lack of having an identifiable culture/ethnicity (or being allowed to have one) has on young white teenagers. There is so much research here on Maori/Polynesians/Asians and how losing their sense of culture/ethnicity effects them as individuals and collectively as well as the overall benefits of being able to identify yourself as being part of a particular cultural/ethnic group, that I really wanted to explore it from the perspective that is studiously ignored.

In the end I chickened out and went with something a bit more conventional, which was probably actually a good thing. My class of 25 people only had two white students (including myself) which is not something that swayed me at all at the time or that I even realised until we had to present our proposals, but when we had to present our proposals at the end of the semester one particular girl (a stunningly beautiful black teenager from SA) got up and talked basically about how she planned on saving all the immigrants and overseas students (1/3rd of Aucklanders are born overseas, and amongst students the numbers are much higher) from the evil, corruptable ways of white New Zealanders, who ended up forcing the immigrant teenagers to party all night, drink, lose their religion and cultural values and talk back to their parents - and I'm not exaggerating, she pretty much said that word for word. The thing was, almost everyone in the room was nodding along with her except for me and the other white person, who just looked stunned. We were meant to ask questions at the end and I did actually ask her whether she thought that her proposal could possibly be intpetpreted in a racist light due to her solely negative representation of white New Zealanders, and she said it wasn't racist because it was true.

And, that's a total tangent away from what I originally wanted to say, so sorry about that =)

[lokiloo.livejournal.com]

Somewhat OT, but---

I am (Illegitimately) Black. I have strong ties to the Indian, Native American, AND West Indies. I can pass as pretty much any Hispanic, Asian, Middle Eastern, or anything else really.

Yet most of the characters I draw/write are either white or asian-esc.

Sooooo, what does that make me; A Bigot, a Rasist, or an incompitent artist? :3

Also, DAMN I should get around to reading Sandstorm. OOPS???

PS: (Do Dragon/Elf/Siren/Goblins count as other races? Or do they have to have diffrent skin colors?)

[maderr.livejournal.com]

That's really depressing. I wish I could say more, but it seems your story says enough. I realize as white people we're the evil oppressors and what the hell ever, but come on. We don't deserve this shit either. I've never treated anyone in such hideous fashion, I don't deserve to be looked down on for my skin color anymore than they do.

[maderr.livejournal.com]

I don't know what it means. Maybe that explains your insanity? Heh <3

You haven't read Sandstorm? *GASP* I AM NEVER SPEAKING TO YOU AGAIN!!!!!!!!11111ONE!

PS. (Gray area. I think by default such fantastical things are alternately sneered at or ignored)

[stardance.livejournal.com]

You live in New Zealand?

I live in Hawaii and last year I had a class on Hawaiian culture where every week was how terrible white people ruined Hawaiian culture. I mean, I can see their point in a way, but on the other hand, I didn't do any of that and nothing I can do will fix it. Not to mention my school is over 60% Asian/Pacific Island so I am in the (privileged) minority here XD It's hard.

[mercury-quirks.livejournal.com]

People are weird O.o

I always thought the idea that "white people" have no culture is rather "racist", because sometimes the way that thought is framed it assumes that they're the default and everyone else is the deviation when no, there is no default. There's just lots of different cultures. It's like claiming one has no accent. Of course everyone has an accent.

It's strange. This issue has been coming up a lot lately. As someone who visually appears to be of non-caucasian descent, I understand that it can sometimes be a little annoying not being able to relate to characters in more ways than just overall personality in a society where that's not always what matters so it's not the only way you define yourself, but it's not something that's going to change by calling people racist O.o I noticed when I was twelve or thirteen or so that I never wrote for characters that looked like me or most people around me. I didn't read about characters that looked like me. None of the stories I wanted to read had any and the ones that did, I couldn't relate to or just didn't want to read. But after the realization I didn't force myself to diversify my characters through race. Just kept the thought in my head. I was putting plenty of other aspects of myself into my stories that were more interesting than my physical self. Since then yeah, I have switched up the races of my characters a little bit, but it was rather gradual and I don't have a quota sheet before I write each story to make sure I'm including everyone. I just write and create characters and whatever pops into my head gets created.

One thing I've always wanted to say:
Yeah, I would tell a black writer they have too many black characters, depending on where and when the story is set.

But then I'm a strange person who comes from a multi-ethnic family and went to an international school and have always, unintentionally, maintained a racially diverse group of friends (we even have white people! XD). So for me the single ethnicity concept is very foreign but I'm familiar with it through TV and books and movies and it doesn't really bother me. Just strikes me as weird because that's never been my life. But I understand that it's other people's lives, I guess. And I figure that either it will change with time, or it won't, and meh. There are other kinds of diversity. Diversity is diverse! =D So long as a story isn't populated with exact clones... although hey, there's an idea.

One thing that annoys me is when I'm reading a book and someone is described as being really dark skinned so my mind goes "Oh! Really dark? Okay, maybe let's picture them as being of african descent; like those east africans who are so dark there's a blueish tint to their skin" and then I realize that Oh wait. They're blond and blue-eyed. The frame of reference of people here is such that really dark = tan. Oops. But that's a really, really minor annoyance that I'm not going to write in to an author about ^^;;

[charisstoma.livejournal.com]

What's not mature about this? You aren't calling anyone abusive names. You are stating things that bother you and why. This is known as discussion, a mature handling of conflict.

[(Anonymous)]

Hmm. I don't get this idea of white people having no culture, because to me it seems like pure bullshit. If y'all don't have culture, then what are all the arts and the music and the social activites? Trifling diversions from raping the land and lynching the downtrodden minorities?

Heh, don't mind me. I'm Native, and I always get white people at Powwows coming up and saying that they envy me because I've got a culture I belong to, so I have to give 'em the same spiel.
Don't let anyone ever tell you you've got no culture, because it simply isn't true.

On that note, please do keep on with the culture and stuff. At least some of us downtrodden minorities -- myself included -- happen to like white culture, no matter how much certain idiots try to tell us it doesn't exist.

[rotewolken.livejournal.com]

Oh right because all these fantasy slash writers are lacking so very badly with cultures.

I mean, Sandstorm certainly didn't have any. Neither did Prisoner. Or the entire Lost Gods series.

And Kidnapped? Pfft.

I hate people like that. I had someone give me the same "Well, this is ok, but you should write more colored people, not just white." Incredibly annoying thing? Person who told me was white.

It IS fiction, and readers DO fit the characters to their own image no matter what they're told. For example in Chaos you say that Sasha has flaming orange hair or something similar. But no matter how many times I read it, I still picture him with a dark rich red color like cherries or blood.

People ranting on about about diversity need to not throw stones at glass houses. Chances are they're just mad your characters are the same color they are.

[alice_montrose]

because I'm white I am by default racist and have no ethnicity, culture, and whatever all else of my own

Seen from an European perspective, that is utter crap. Because I can name several nations that have their own culture and preserve it. In fact, that's what we all struggle to do in the face of globalization. You'd be amazed to see how EU member states strive to preserve their ethnicity. And regardless of what is said, there is a US culture to speak of. Otherwise I wouldn't have an "American Culture and Civilization" course at University, would I now.

And this brings back the fact I was called a racist for telling some things about Romanian gypsies that were not what some people wanted to hear. I'm not sure.. is this a trend in conversation nowadays, to accuse people of being racist just because you can?

[blackcat348.livejournal.com]

i'm white, i grew up in a town thats mostly white and i hate when people say that white people "have no culture". i sure do, i'm over half german with a love for sour kraut and heavy breads and antiques that i got from my relitives who got it from theirs, who lived in a german community, who mostly spoke german until the world wars when it was a stigma. they got their german culture from their family who lived in germany. is that not culture? if that isn't what is "culture" if not something to tie people to their roots?

and they say white people have no culture.

[joisbishmyoga.livejournal.com]

Aaaaaand THIS is why I'm rather scared to write ethnic minorities of any sort. Because I'm "omg the eeeeevil oppressor lily-ass white", any attempt at writing a nonwhite character is OMG TOKEN CHARACTER RACIST BITCH or OMG STEREOTYPING RACIST BITCH or OMG DISEMPOWERMENT RACIST BITCH (if not the main character). *sigh*

And yet nobody would notice if I didn't write female characters, or wrote them in stereotypical ways and nonheroic roles, and we've been oppressed on a far vaster scale-- 50% of the population, globally, for millenia instead of centuries.

(... er, this isn't a criticism of your preference for writing slash and yaoi. I prefer writing boys, too, mostly because I write fanfic and the female characters are just... no.)

[(Anonymous)]

Oh come on, you write about ogres, if that's not multicultural what is?? If there is something that I find truly racist it is when people put "token ethnicity" in their stories just so they can feel good about them selves.

[captainschlumpy.livejournal.com]

first off, LOL at that anonymous poster! I do get extremely tired of being told I have no culture and no heritage. Also, I don't intend to apologize for the heinous crimes of my ancestors. I'm Irish Dammit! We have a culture! I got into a long discussion with one of my black colleagues (a tricky thing in the South) about how the Irish were once slaves and some of them came to the US (my ancestors included) as indentured servants. He had no idea. I think people tend to be too focused on being PC and "diverse". I just try to get along with everyone and find some common ground with a person no matter where they are from or what they look like. It may sound funny but I've made more friends with comics than I could have ever imagined!

[sagesae.livejournal.com]

I've never understood this whole "white people" thing. When I was a kid and people asked what I was, I said mixed mutt but I like to say white because my family name is from Scotland.

The whole idea of white people having no culture made very little sense as well. I mean, walk up to any Caucasian and ask them their ethnicity. I doubt they'll answer "well, I'm white." Or really, ANY skin color for that matter. An Asian isn't just an Asian: They may be Korean, or Japanese, or Chinese, or Russian.

Heavens, as an American, I have a culture. I just have to look around Japan to see everyone trying to be like us to know it.

I take pride in my lineage and my homeland. I am diversity in itself. I am not sneered on because I am of mixed blood or because I choose not to worship the god of my father.

The racism problem is TOO complicated to write about

[(Anonymous)]

here, but I could only note that in my first encounter with maderr's writings "Lost gods" I was pleased to read a story so obviously non-Western, so to speak, in spirit. The same goes for the last part of Dragons and Knights and a lot more. Of course, I am white, if a Russian Jew could be white :)

Rose Red

[maderr.livejournal.com]

It does rather seem to be coming up a lot lately. I thought of you when this all started, because you're putting up with the same shit we are -- and you might have gotten it to a worse degree. It's utterly insulting to say white people have no culture.

American Culture and Civilization? Dude, there's a course I'd love to take, just to see what people say.

[maderr.livejournal.com]

That's a very good point. If some of us were to write the minorities, we'd get yelled at for doing it wrong. Damned if we do, damned if don't.

Oh lord could I go on about women in fiction. But I tend to let it slide, because that's a war no one will ever win, I feel.

[maderr.livejournal.com]

No kidding. It's rather a tacky reason to include such things.

[alice_montrose]

It's even more accurate to say white people have a wide variety of different cultures. And they can call me intolerant on certain issues - I won't deny that I am. But a racist? It's a good thing I have stopped putting these things to heart. *sigh*

I can always photocopy you my textbook, if you really want to know. but basically it's what you eat, why you have certain customs, what life in your cities is like compared to life in small towns... and lots of terminology you use for certain things, like Congress. For example, on my exam I had to talk about your electoral system. Others had to talk about religion(s). Oh. And I had to define "stag party". That was kinda hilarious.

Oh well... back to my story editing. It has two different peoples in it who derived from one ancient people - does that count as cultural diversity? /end irony

[doro-chan.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I don't quite get the problem. I remember that I read an article about Friends a few years ago and that people in the US complained about the fact that there was no black friend. And then a friend who had been in the US told me that black kids and white kids don't hang out with each other in general. At least at her high school. How is a token black character in a TV show supposed to change that (or racism against blacks)?

Another thing that annoyed me is the definition of "racism = prejudice + power". Because, honestly, the only time I heard that definition was when black people told me that my (dictionary) definition was wrong. Plus it's really hard to define "power".

This doesn't mean, however, that there's no racism where I live. There is, and it's mainly directed at Turkish people and people from Russia/Poland and other East European countries. Who are white.

Also, could somebody explain to me why "diversity" makes a good story? Or why it makes the story better?

[maderr.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm really intolerant on certain matters. Illegal immigrants here piss me the fuck off. But I'm not racist, I just think they should be paying their fucking taxes if they're going to live here. That and Spanish is not our goddamn official language, but I'm wandering from the point.

Nah. It's just always interesting the pov's of others. I remember we went to England for Christmas and Sammie and I had a blast looking up their pov on the American Revolution - King George's War, I think they call it. Stag party? Ahahahaha.

So long as they're not white *rolls eyes*

[alice_montrose]

What annoyed me most about that person was that he/she didn't even deign to sign it. Which, in my book, meant that he/she lacked the courage of taking responsibility for his/her convictions.

That and Spanish is not our goddamn official language, but I'm wandering from the point.

It's like that between us and Hungarian nationalists living in these two counties right in the middle of the country. They are more Hungarian than the people living in Hungary, and they are born and raised in Romania. *shakes head* But no, I don't want to discuss this either. I agree, however, that illegal immigrants are usually a nuisance.

Well, the demons are darker in colour, but think Greek/Italian genes versus German/Scandinavians. And their wings are different colours too. *LOL*

[maderr.livejournal.com]

You know, the one cool thing about reading the Historian was that it showed me a little bit more about that area (though, during the cold war period) of the world, which I never learned in school and stuff. Learning more from you here and there is really neat, though I have to keep making myself behave and not make vampire jokes.


Ah, well then. I suppose your characters might be suitably diverse enough. You may continue to write it as is ^_~

[alice_montrose]

Go ahead and make vampire jokes. As a Transylvanian Anne Rice fan at the tender age of 16, I've probably heard them all. After a time, I might have even stopped getting annoyed by them. :P

I really, really need to get started on that little presentation of life in a Medieval Fortified Saxon Town from Transylvania in the 21st century I was planning on doing. It seems people might be interested in something like that.

[maderr.livejournal.com]

I'm impressed they let Anne Rice's books in the country. I think I'd use any excuse to ban her. I read them too, but now I wonder 'self, wtf were you thinking?" I did like Armand, though. He was such a damned brat.

And I'll avoid tasteless jokes. My family has no choice but to put up with me, but no one else should suffer.

That would be neat!

[alice_montrose]

I liked Rice's stuff pre-TOTBT, but alas things got weird once she rediscovered her religion and became a psycho-bitch or something. Oh well... it's not like her stuff is that great now that I had the chance to read it in English.

Best not share the joke about the nuns and the graveyard vampire, then...

Whenever I get the chance to write that essay, you'll know. *hug*

[avalon13.livejournal.com]

I recognize it as a sign of Hate Train Syndrome. Where upon the Source of Ire believes themselves to be the most open minded, wonderfully accepting person Ever, that anyone who does not proclaim immediate love for all races, and feels the need to point out the backgrounds of every single minority group character is A Racist.

A part of me contemplates if the Source of Ire is a troll, whereupon I believe we should Take Action, and find the Source's location so that we may Insult His/Her Choice of Clothing and tell him/her that He/She Fails.

Also, Poison icon for old time's sake.

[anialove.livejournal.com]

You weren't immature at all.

My poor friends had to deal with my ranting for hours after I read that entry. Now I can find it amusing, but nothing gets me angrier faster than telling me I have no culture and am racist by default.

[maderr.livejournal.com]

Sammie and I were admiring what you said on her LJ. You're very eloquent. The definitions were beautiful.

[anialove.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

I used to hang out with debators. I can argue very well as long as there is no cross examination period.

[miikarin.livejournal.com]

*laughs* I have personally never encountered racism directed at me or someone else from a white person. On the flip side though, I know quite a few Asians who are racist against Caucasians.

That statement about having no culture because a person happens to be white, is false by quite a few definitions of the word.

[sixpence1323.livejournal.com]

Mm... That is rather upsetting, isn't it? My father is a white male supremist, also a homophobe. I grew up hearing the most disgusting things you could imagine about people because they happened to be born who they were. Luckily, my mother raised me to judge a person by character only. I often forget that people still look a person's color, when I don't even consider it. It's somewhat unnerving to hear it affecting you. Honestly, you don't seem close-minded at all to me.

I would know - my father is a perfect example of a nightmare. (I hate him)

It's very disappointing that humanity as a whole just can't get over the damn skin color thing. Just damn it all, we are in the year 2007 and we still have this problem? Hasn't science explained enough why people are the color they are? (Geek coming out there - put a white person in the sun and bake for however many millions of years and BAM! You have evolved into a black person. Amazing, no? Not to mention genetics) And really, pointing out racism/prejudice when it isn't there - doesn't that make the other person racist/prejudice (whatever) and not the author? It shows how very single minded that person is, only able to think of race. Ah well... People these days. Trivial issues. What awful matter does skin present? When it boils down to it, a jerk is a jerk, no matter what color. How upsetting.

You're plenty diverse.