POV

[maderr]

The writing comm started up by friends, and which I sort of stalk, makes me want to chatter.

I am not an English Major, or anything even remotely related to writing. I have two BA's - in East Asian Studies and History, both with an emphasis on Japan (especially the Meiji period *.*). I took one creative writing - fiction class in college, and that at the urging of a good friend with whom I tried it. That class, and my last year of college, were what really made me want to be a writer -- and realize that maybe, just maybe, I could write.

So, I have no formal training. I am not, at the end of the day, qualified to bitch and moan and talk about pov, plot, structure, character development, etc. What I know, I have taught myself, learning by reading and writing and trying (and, of course, whining here and to my far too indulgent sisters and friends).

Still, I have always been a voracious reader. Books have always been part of what makes up the center of my world. I have and still do sacrifice food money to buy books. My mother has told me before that when I was too little to read, I'd pick up books and pretend I was reading. When I played alone, I told myself stories and occasionally acted them out (though usually I played with my siblings, man we had some good play pretend games). In school, we were drilled drilled drilled on writing. Especially in NC, and my siblings will attest to this -- NC takes it's damn writing/composition/whatever tests way too seriously. Maybe tsaiko knows differently, I don't know, but at least in my neck of the woods, we were beaten to death with the damn things.

Um, anyway. A lot was drilled into me, and I understood it better, I think, for all the reading I did -- and the wide variety. I read mostly bodice ripppers in those days, but I also read fantasy, horror, classics, man all kinds of stuff. One of the things I recall very clearly was never to use 'you'. This applied in both nonfiction and fiction writing. No essay, no story, nothing should ever employ 'you'. Sammie could better enunciate the precise and proper reasons for this, I only know it's jarring. The very first thing my creative writing teacher said was Never Use Second Person. It's awkward, hard to get into, and at least in my unqualified opinion annoying as hell. I don't want to know what I'm doing, it's more like reading a running list of instructions than a story.

First person is a bad idea most of the time, because most people just aren't up to it. Descriptions and everything get screwed up, not to mention the inconsistencies that often pop up with the 'voice' and some scenes just do not do well in first person. But, some people can manage it, and so it's a viable choice. I read somewhere once that n00bs find it more comfortable to write in, but more often than not n00b work written that way comes off a lot closer to mary sue voice than anything else. And I swear to god if I see one more person use the "I looked in the mirror and saw *insert dumbass description that no one would actually think*" I will drag him into the streets and beat the stupid out of him.

Third person omni is another insanely tricky one. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one series - The Secret History of the Pink Carnation - that actually does it well. I know there's another one, Sammie always mentions it, but currently I'm blanking. It's sort of fun, in it's own way, but hard to write I'm sure, if only so readers don't get horribly confused when the POV suddenly switches from one paragraph to the next. Like I said, if you want an awesome example, read Pink Carnation.

Obviously my bias is Third person limited. I think it's the most fun. I have used first person for parts of stories before -- Never Afraid Are We probably being the one people might think of -- but I would not say I'm good at it. So I seldom use it. My favorite, and the one I have found I like best is 3rd Limited. Most of the time it's the best choice, and allows for the best of all worlds.
I don't know. I hate second person. I think it'st a poor choice for POV, but I've seen it in "professional" works so I guess it's a growing trend. Personally, I laugh in contempt and swear off that story, if not that author, forevermore.

But, if I've learned anything tonight, it's only what I already knew -- I'm obnoxious, bitchy, too opionated, and eventually people would rather ignore me than deal with me. It's my own damn fault, and I'm not sorry for who I am, but sometimes it is frustrating. Oh, well.

My two cents. Second Person bad.

Comments

[sixpence1323.livejournal.com]

2nd is bad. Ew. 1st person is a lot of fun, though, if you do it right. The only thing is description of the actual character who's thinking, which is tricky to do.

3rd person limited is my fav, but I'm better at 1st person. And a great example of 1st person used well is Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson and the Olympians. He really does that well. Damn funny, too, if you've read enough mythology.

I mostly read fantasy. Only fantasy. Never anything else. Or science mags. (Well, I still read both, so nothing's changed, actually)

And honestly, Maderr, you write better than most of the writers out there, even the pros. Jeez... (grumble grumble)

[rykaine.livejournal.com]

First person, it's easy to forget that you are not "I". Thus the Mary Sue syndrome. Also, yes, piss-poor descriptions of self. Only Narcissus would look at himself in the mirror and see long gold-yellow hair, pouty, bow-shaped lips, a roman nose, and god knows what else. If I don't look in the mirror and see mud on the top of my head, what may be blue eyes (although I have my doubts) and a fat chin, then I must be having a really good day.

if only so readers don't get horribly confused when the POV suddenly switches from one paragraph to the next

If it's doing that it's not Third Omniscient. That's a carousel of Third Limiteds trying to be Omniscient *coughStandishcough*. Which I why I say TO is a bad way to go. It's not easy. People who do it well, do it well. I guess. Robin McKinnley's Donkey Skin is TO and that shit bored me to tears. Mostly I find it's just too disconnected. I've not yet read one that was truly TO that I could really get into.

*shrug* My two cents.

I should probably go make this comment to cw000, too...

[maderr.livejournal.com]

*laugh* Yeah, those are the descriptions I hate. I look in the mirror and think 'yep, still have smallpox' not 'my long lustrous locks'

Ah. Robin McKinley. You know, I'd have to read that again. I thought Beej and I liked it, though I concede her books can be x.x to read sometimes, style wise.

Your two cents is alway a very good two cents ^__^

[rykaine.livejournal.com]

You don't think your locks are lustrous? How tragic for you.

I know. That's why I read it. That's why I read Beauty, actually. But honestly, I found her to be rather droll in the end. *shrug* Maybe it's just me.

Haha, if anyone reads too closely, my .02 will probably get me flamed again. ^__^

ETA
What about lucsious? Are they long, lustrous, luscious locks?

Luminescent? Luminous?

[maderr.livejournal.com]

Right now they're rather wet and tangled. Maybe I shall look upon myself and think I resemble a whimsical mermaid of the deep lost upon shore.

I am rather torn with her, often. The stories themselves are sound, but often the execution makes me twitchy. Her blue sword fantasy stuff is much better.

heh, you're two cents are on fire, baby.

[rykaine.livejournal.com]

Ooh, you sexy, fish, you.

Never read. After DS, never really had an interest to. -_- Maybe I give up too easily...

Burn, baby, burn!

[nikerymis.livejournal.com]

I think NYS (or possibly my backwater small town) is more lax on the writing/composition teaching. There was a lot of emphasis on the sciences and math and reading comprehension, but less so on how to write well. Once I got out of elementary school, English class was more about understanding literature and less about writing it. I do remember my teachers harping on essay writing, and not including "I" or "you" in essays except in very, very select circumstances. This is kind of ironic, considering that my job is currently breaks that rule a dozen times a day. Technical writing is a lot different than fiction or academic writing, though.

Honestly, I never wanted or liked writing much until I hit college. My exposure to it was mostly limited to "be creative, and write a poem or sonnet for this assignment instead of an essay," and I really suck ass at poetry. Reading it, writing it, similes and metaphors, rhythm and rhyme... yeah, it's one of my huge literary weakness. It wasn't until I got to college and took Philosophy that I started actually writing (and only then at an off-hand comment of the professor, because he thought it was a pity I didn't write more often).

The biggest influences on my writing have always been the books or stories I've read. I learned grammar by osmosis, not through English class. Hell, when I first started writing stories, I did the "the blue-eyed boy verbed" and whatnot. I think there's a first-person in my repertoire somewhere, but I am utterly loathe to think about it. Once I got into Third Limited, I was stuck there. Second person has never even occurred to me. I don't think I could pull it off, and I have an irrational hatred of it as it is.

Blah, and this is me babbling when I should just give up and go to bed. :\ Sorry if you've had a bad day. ♥

[skylark97.livejournal.com]

Amen, sista friend. Preach it! ;3 *tackle glomps*

And being an avid book lover is education enough,imho. :3 All I know is the stuff I learned in English lit in HS and what I've intuitively figured out from reading books myself...I just keep building on it and going back to it because it interests me. ^_~

[grimcognito.livejournal.com]

I usually write in either first or third person, but second often makes me want to burn things. I'm the biggest n00b to writing, but I read like nobody's business. I currently go to art school, so I find that I can describe things really well, but I can't write dialogue for crap. My sister has told me often that I could describe the person's voice better than what they are trying to say. Your work actually made me want to get back into writing, as you've rekindled my love for knights.

[alice_montrose]

Seen from the Romanian perspective of teaching English as a second language in Bilingual classes, we did a fair bit of essay-writing, pecause some of us were expected to carry on as English Literature Majors. Which most of us didn't (me = English Language Major = lots of grammar, no literature)... but anyway. We were expected to manage some sort of creative writing, and we had a really good prof who taught us some techniques. Basic stuff, but it stayed with me ever since.

And I swear to god if I see one more person use the "I looked in the mirror and saw *insert dumbass description that no one would actually think*" I will drag him into the streets and beat the stupid out of him.

Can we join in, as well?

I did First Person once (it's even half-decent compared to most stuff written that way). It's true, it might be easier to write, but it's also considerably easier to screw it up. Because not many people remember that, when writing First person, one has to focus on the perception and thoughts on that particular person, which is actually difficult to achieve.

I also prefer third Person Limited. It's nice, you can switch POVs and present the reader with more pOVs on the events and other characters, and (at least IMO) it's overall nicer to read. Of course, this too has its perils - change that POV too often and you ahve a problem. (Yes, I also did one of these, and while at the time I was quite proud of it, currently it grates on my poor brain.)

[avalon13.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't totally dismiss second person. The thing is, do it well, and it's amazing, do it badly and no one will ever love you except your mother. For me, second person isn't for adventure stories or whatever. It lends drama, it lends insight, and lord I adore it done well. There was a very, very short story I read once, done in 2nd person. Beautifully written, the words done just so, until they're reflected in your eyes, and you see the story unfolding in your head. 2nd person isn't;

You see a deer to your right, and your stomach growls with hunger.

It's a bit like(mind you I'm not an expert in this POV, but I'll give it a shot for this sentence),

The words get stuck in your throat, slide down, down, and knot themselves in your stomach so tightly you could scream.

Or something like that.

1st person has never sat very well with me, I'm afraid. It's just that I've never described myself as being 'tall for my age, with blond hair that looked like burnt honey, and sapphires for eyes.' This is usually because I am CHINESE. And not that SELF-ABSORBED. Also, you are perfectly entitled to your own opinions, ione must merely take care not to step on too many toes. <3

[bitchypixii.livejournal.com]

Hm. I've also gotten beaten over the head with Second Person Bad since, well, birth, since my mom was an English teacher. And first person always sounds strange. So I tend to avoid most of those stories. But there are some certain ways in which both of those are really the most effective way to tell a story.

First person, for example, works well if you don't have a character who has an exalted opinion of themselves, and also if you want someone to really get inside your character's head. You really have to consider your audience, though. Because you are in someone's head, you have to be able to think like them, all the time. In my experience, the author being the same gender as the character as well as the reader being the same gender helps with that, a lot. I don't know your opinion on children's fiction, but one of the books on the freshman summer reading list at my high school (which I read a few years back) was Heir Apparent, by Vivian Vande Velde. The story itself is a little cheesy, but the girl is a character that it's pretty easy to relate to. And I really love the way the world she interacts with was developed. And I do believe it wouldn't have been as entertaining if it was told in any other way.

Another one for first person I enjoyed was Sunshine, by Robin McKinley. I've been told by others that you don't enjoy traditional vampires much, and while they deviate some, these are pretty traditional and strongly involved, so if that's not your cup of tea I'd give it a miss. But again, I like the worldbuilding that went into it.

I don't think I've actually read something published in second person, but I have stumbled across a couple of experimental pieces here and there on the internet and in real life. Some are just ghastly, but there was one - a horror piece - that really worked well. It scared me, and I think the 'you' helped with the experimental tone of the whole piece.

All this said, I pretty much stick to third person limited. Lord knows I can't write anything else.

[hopechest.livejournal.com]

Although certain points of view are more difficult than others and done poorly, I don't think one should rule any out entirely. Second person, for example, sounds more fitting for self help or instructional books. Yet at the same time I'd like to see someone try it and do a decent job. Come to think of it, second person may suit a campfire tale style short store, something meant to evoke that feeling of a storyteller sitting there in front of you.

[maderr.livejournal.com]

Self help, instructions, technical writing -- those are something else entirely, and maybe I should have said, but I really didn't count those in what I was talking about.

And I just can't agree. Personally if I had to listen to that all night, I'd get fed up fast. I want to hear a story, not what 'I'm' doing. But,I guess its just one of those personal pref things ^_^

[hopechest.livejournal.com]

True. it's all preference. Thinking about it, I used to be rather anti-first person. Now I think it's neat though to read something that makes me stop and go, "Wow. That was surprisingly good," especially when it's to tough to pull off or generally disliked. It's like trying a food you don't like prepared differently; you don't take a nipple, then a little more, then realize you like it!

Self help books and instructional books were the first things that came to mind with 2nd person though. I can't think of any fictional works I've read that have used them. Actually, this post made me want to see if I can find one. XD Ah, I'm a glutton for punishment. I'm positive I'll find many bad ones before I ever find a good one.

And I'm sorry about the food analogy. It's 4am and I'm on Happy Babble Lane.

[broken-moons.livejournal.com]

I agree that 3rd limited often works best, but I really like 1st, too. I have... a bunch of stories that use it (though I've used it less since I started writing in English). And 2nd... is tricky, but can be so awesome. And there's more than one way to pull it off. I even tried it myself, in a story that was both 1st and 2nd - the 1st person narrator was chronicling the events of the plot for posterity, and she did it in the form of a letter to her lover who had died centuries ago. He'd played a part in the story, though, so the first section of the story the narrator would use 'you' a lot.

The story stranded, not because of the POV style, but because I ran out of plot/steam. Still, it was an interesting excercise.

Mirror descriptions are bad no matter what your POV, but yeah, they're worse when it's 1st. D: