(no subject)

[maderr]

I really wish the stupid cat would come back inside so I could go sleepy x_x I wanted to be in bed awhile ago, but noooooooo. Fucking cat >.> We're gonna have stew for dinner tomorrow. Chinese stew.

In other news, because I'm tired and trying to stay awake, cracked open a torq story I'd never gotten around to reading and all it's done is remind me why I stopped reading some the med to hard kinks. I fucking hate the way so many stories do dom/sub stuff. The dom is always some asshole I wish would fuck off and die, and the subs are whiney babies I want to punch in the face and just ARGH

Mostly it's the dynamics. Such a fascinating dynamic to work with. I love it. So many stories fuck it up or lay it all out in paint-by-numbers fashion, a lot of telling but not showing so I feel more like I'm reading some sort of really shitty instructiong manual more than a romance.

Ugh. I guess I have no room to talk. That sort of thing isn't something I've really tackled. I guess I have my dwtd dragons, but I don't know if they count per se. It's a bit different, there, because the dragos are. not. human. they can look human, and act human depending on how lazy they are (Cal does really well, the twins not so much). So, I dunno. You've got Charlie (angel from dwtd) but again that's different -- Jed made him, literally. He wears a collar as part of keeping him what he is, and to show who made him, etc. I have harem, but again -- not a true play of dom/sub roles.

I dunno. Maybe it's beyond my comprehension and that's why it's bugging me. But I do know how important characters are, how crucial it is to get their dynamics right. If all you're going to do is beat me over the head with shit instead of showing me, and if you're more interested in A is Master and B is Sub and beating me over the head with THAT, then please to be going away. It can be difficult to write certain characters, oh my god do I know this. I'd like to see someone nail Dieter and Beraht, go ahead and try.

The most important thing is that the story is not about the fucking writer and what she wants to see. It's about the character, the story. How would A act? How would B act? If A did this how would B react? Would he react differently if C was around? If all you're going to do is cut out stupid ass paperdolls and force them into the situations you want to see, or worse -- change them because your'e too fucking lazy to do it right -- then get the fuck out of the sandbox.

What makes me saddest is that my words are empty. The sad truth is that it's the crap that gets published, and I can write 'til I'm blue in the face and get nowhere. No one wants details, or characters that work, or worlds that make sense. They just want tissue paper stories with lots of smut. As hard as I try, the likes of Prisoner or my fairytales or DwtD or Kidnapped just don't amount to much.

Would like to see a GOOD dom/sub story. It's such a pretty dynamic when done correctly. But that's the ultimate problem I guess -- damn near every story I read makes it ugly. It should be hella pretty. I mean come on, it's not like it would even be hard to do it properly. I mean most people take the cop out of B learning from A so A immediately throws him into the dom/sub games, regardless of what B was actually hoping to learn (which, generally, is just learning how to be a good fuck toy. the creativity, it slays, especially when there's no goddamn fucking cultural basis for anyone to be acting thi way or choosing to do this). There are much better foundations to start from. No, I'm not telling you. But I will say that old school is best school and sometimes the best place to start is with the obvious. People try too fucking hard and wind up sounding dumber than they would have otherwise.

Ugh rambling now.

Whatever. Tired. Cranky. Seriously annoyed. Cat back. Ignore me. To bed I go. Peace out.

Comments

[hyperjirou.livejournal.com]

First off, it sucks that the publishing world works that way. Unfortunately, it is true that publishers that are willing to publish slash prefer smut to plot. I look forward to the days when it's easier for slash writers like you, who really write something more suitable for del rey or Daw than the smut rags, are able to get themselves published by those mainstream companies.

On the dom/sub note, I completely agree. I can only think of one story which does it well. If you are familiar with the Weiss Kruez fandom try Miko no Da's Sinners and Saints arc. Not only does she pay a lot of attention to character interaction, she customizes the dom/sub dynamic. There is some very dark parts to the characters background, in the first story of the arc especially, but it's very much for character building. The main dom/sub pair shows up in the second story. The sub in question, was born and raised in the community, and is incapable of functioning without a master. The dom, claims him to protect him, and spends the rest of their relationship slowly teaching him how to be both a sub and a person. It's very interesting.

[raielchan.livejournal.com]

Do any of the doms have trouble cracking up while being dom or have a problem with being too polite?

[avalon13.livejournal.com]

Firstly,

HEY. I'm chinese. I do not eat cat stew. We find stir fry is much better and keeps the meat at a more tender and succulent texture. We also eat babies.

Secondly,

Fuck them Torq bitches. Torq is porn central and precious few of their books are worth reading. Honorbound is the only things that save it from utter and total misery.

Thirdly,

Sadly, the whole Dom/Sub thing has never been my cup of tea. It may be because I've never read a good one. I wonder, Megan...Will you be changing that? *leer*

[graphitesmudges.livejournal.com]

STOP ECHOING WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY. O____________O You have no idea how FREAKY that is.

As for the third point, >.> I've read this good Dom/Sub SMUT, but plot-wise? Eh. I'm not so sure myself.

[sunandshadow.livejournal.com]

I think the issue of how to do a Dom/sub story well is a very interesting one. I certainly have seen many D/s stories where I hated one or both characters and had no idea why one would see anything admirable about the other. Probably I'm biased, because the only kinds of Doms I like are the protective Daddy/Leader ones and the benevolently manipulative ones. If the dom doesn't respect and care about his sub its not love, and I only want to read about love. Yet there are so many stories that drool over Doms who are sadistic or arrogant assholes overflowing with machismo, I guess someone must find that attractive.

Its the same with submissives - I like the ones who are 110% loyal and long to be helpful, or in some cases the suspicious ones who have to thoroughly test their potential master before giving their trust and loyalty to him. And if the submissive never gets to feel sorry for the Dom and help him in some important way its not a real partnership, when the most appealing thing about D/s stories is their focus on the formation of an intense intimate partnership with two distinct complementary roles. I also can't respect a sub who doesn't have personal integrity and some hard limits that, if his Dom ever did X, he would leave the Dom, stop loving him, or maybe even try to kill him or turn him in to the authorities. If it weren't for the fact that such a story would be no fun to read, I'd want to see some stories where the Dom goes too far and the sub gathers his resolve and walks out. But it couldn't end in an apology and reconciliation because that would be a cop out, but how else do you get to a happy ending?

I do think it must be hard to write a D/s story because the writer would have to understand on a gut level both why a Dom is a Dom and why a sub is a sub; me I am neither so I have difficulty understanding both. Why does a Dom want to be the one with all the responsibility? (I get sick of having responsibility.) Why does the sub trust the Dom's judgment? (I don't trust anyone's judgment if it disagrees with my own, and if it agrees with mine that hardly counts as me being an obedient follower.) I don't think anyone has the moral right to give orders to anyone else, what would my character's moral philosophy be if he felt differently?

[maderr.livejournal.com]

Heh. I could not resist the Chinese crack. I figured one of you would be amused, or at least smack me <3

Here, here. I keep trying to give them a chance, I need to learn to give up.

I'll read almost anything. Everything intrigues me, and I love seeing new stuff. There is precious little I flat out refuse to read, and I love a challenge.

Maybe? I dunno, right now I really do have enough on my plate.

[icytanya.livejournal.com]

To introduce meself, i'm just a pirate who's been lurking on these shores for some time and i suddenly felt very guilty about it. Specially since i can totally empathise with you! I hate bad BDSM stories (I loved your Tori/Kip one tho....)
Have u eevr been to a site called mannazone.org? It's not really a D/s relationship but it's good man- really good, it's even got an essay explaining how the relationship works which is pretty interesting though u don't need to read it to get into it. It's still one of my favorite slash sites (original fiction mostly) though the author doesn't add any new stories. And the smut is HOT! It's my fav site after urs, really love urs though...especially Toad Prince- i squeed over it first time i read it. I'll stop bothering u now! ^_^'

[maderr.livejournal.com]

Yay! I like when people delurk ^__^ I do not know that site; I'm terrible about finding other slash sites, I tend to get so caught up in writing I don't read as often as I'd like. I'll check it out, and thanks for mentioning it.

Hee, Toad Prince ^__^ I'm glad you liked. It's always fun to hear which fairytales people like.

[ruselkie.livejournal.com]

so clearly you just need to set up a paypal account, and we'll just pay you to write, since you kinda do it on demand anyway. skip the whole publishing nonsense-- authors get screwed by that anyway, right?

seriously, you have some of the best writing i've ever read (and that would be a hella lot, trust me) and if you do ever self publish (especially black magic or any and all of your fairy tales) i will be first in line with my check/cc/money order in hand.

hopefully sleep has helped.

[sunsetbaby.livejournal.com]

I understand how you feel. Even when I'm talking to my friends they have so many misconceptions about BDSM. I really liked Ann Somerville's domination story, okay... wait... she doesn't have it on her site? Did I remember the author wrong? How incredibly frustrating... okay... I will find the story eventually and then send it to you (and by eventually, I mean, now, when I should be studying:P)

Cheers,
-J

[maderr.livejournal.com]

I should be used to it. Lord knows I knew what I was in for when I first got into this genre. Even a beta has told me I should just give in and write something mass-pleasing just to get published (which I fucking refuse to do). Still, I do wish I could find my niche. Enough people believe me here there's got to be some place willing to take me -__-

Wow, Weiss. There's a fandom I haven't touched in years. I'll look it up sometime.

[maderr.livejournal.com]

Ah, see. You obviously have thought it out, something so-called writers constantly fail to do. I like what you have to say, and you say it very well -- right down to the not getting. I myself resent being given lots of orders. I don't want all the responsibility, but I don't want to entirely give it up either. So a relationship that is composed of two extremes is intriguing. I wish writers took this to mind and played with it more.

I also agree totally with the sub setting limits thing.This latest story pissed me off b/c the dom did some pretty nasty shit and the sub thought when it was all over that he might have once been fallng for the dom, but right then he hated them. A few hours later everyone is confessing and making up and all is well -__- It was fucking stupid and totally not buyable, esp. since what the dom did was really fucking close to rape.

[maderr.livejournal.com]

Somerville, huh? I hear mixed reviews about her.

[maderr.livejournal.com]

*laugh* I wouldn't be that crass, lordie. Maybe I'll spend the day editing, that most loathed and despised chore.

Thank you very much, my dear. You guys keep me trying and improving.

Oh, it always helps. Sleep cures all ills, even bad porn.

[sunsetbaby.livejournal.com]

I like some of her stuff.

Okay, because I'm creepy like that, I finally remembered the main character's name and discovered that Ann Somerville did write it, but it seems she's taken it down... hmm... And none of my crazy efforts are making it available, she must be revamping it or something. Well, I know someone already recommended mannazone.org, which houses "Administration", which is good, but it's too bad you can't see this one as well. It's about a guy who is framed for a crime and ends up working in a brothel to pay off his debt (that's how crimes work in this universe). Anyway, he already is aware and trained in the art of being a sub and while he's at the brothel he ends up playing sub to a dom who really doesn't know what he's doing. Most of the story is about their relationship and him teaching the dom how to do it right - which I think is essentially what you're looking for. Certainly it helped explain a lot of stuff to me...

[maderr.livejournal.com]

Eh. Yet another brothel story, I dunno. I guess it's as good a setting as any. I need to get around to reading Somerville's stuff anyway. I really don't like her much, to be honest, I've seen her be really fucking mean to too many people - but people rec her writing all the time (though my sister hates her) so I guess I should give it an honest try sometime. I'll see if she's got it on lulu, though knowing her she probably is revamping it. I know she does that not infrequently.

[mechante-fille.livejournal.com]

Oh, let's see. I could probably write a book in response, but, break is almost over so I'll refrain. Um, highlights. Noticed a couple of people mentioned Manna's Administration Series. I plan to buy the first book, Mind Fuck now that it is out in print. The first couple of chapters of the book act as a stand alone short story, so it is a nice way to test the waters. Then if you like, there is lots, lots more. It is a future dystopia story, but not really sci-fi.^^ Imagine the European Union in a future that decides that peace is only possible with martial law, the obliteration of national identity, and routine and highly skilled torture as the way of determining truth and justice. The main characters are fascinating, and the sub is one of the strongest men I've encountered in fiction. I think you'll really like the Dom, too. He and Dieter... well, I think they would respect one another, but possibly one would end up dead.

Um, as far as Ann, I really liked her Darshian Tales. The past ones. I couldn't get into the future world setting ones. But if you were going to give her writing a shot, I'd start with Kei's Gift, if I were you.

Also, I owe you comments for the brain-melting pirate/ninja story. Mmm, mmm, good!^^

Heh, wrote a book, anyway.^___^

[avalon13.livejournal.com]

Babies; the other white meat. Just ask Greg! <3 I have never eaten cat, but I have eaten crocodile. Chewy.

I'll pretty much give anything a try, but there are times when I just draw the line. When it gets a little too down and dirty, it's time to stop.

I was just joking, precious. But if you'll write it I won't say no. <3

[avalon13.livejournal.com]

I THRIVE ON BEING FREAKY.

I am a very romantic(tell NO ONE) person. Dom/Sub relationships have never seemed very...romanticky to me?

[maderr.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's what bugs me the most. the only thing that tells me it's romantic is that the author TELLS me they're in love. But based on action alone? I so never get that vibe.

[avalon13.livejournal.com]

Based on what I've heard, Dom/sub relationships(lets just call it DSL, shall we?) are based a lot on trust and the sub being very dependent on the Dom? Since there's a lot of trust involved in letting someone else tie you up and drip hot candle wax on you, I don't think "Give it to me! Give it to me harder!" and "Take it! Take it and like it , bitch!" exactly conveys that trust.

[maderr.livejournal.com]

I agree. If I was going to attempt such a thing, I would def focus less on the goddamned smut and more on the other dynamics. What would interest me would be building a culture around such a thing. People always half-ass that shit -- pleasure slaves and the like, without ever saying why it's done or actually making it work, culturally speaking. Some half-ass it as a status thing, but never really make it work. It's a popular theme in sci-fi porn. "planet of sex-crazed maniacs who keep pleasure saves whom they treat like shit but who madly love them anyway" =_= I think if it were going to be a cultural thing, then it would more likely be the exception rather than the rule. Something everyone whispers about when the pair in question walks in the room, you know? Which to my mind somehow screams magic, or something like that, but I'm not sure how. Not wholly unlike alchemists in black magic, I guess, but much more with the dsl.

Oops, blathered on a bit didn't I? ^^;;

[twilight-angel.livejournal.com]

Someone mention building a culture around a BDSM lifestyle? *evil grin* Okay, I know the stories are Stargate: Atlantis fics, so if that's not your thing, oh well. But if you want a really interesting take on a culture that revolves around BDSM with the society being intrinsically bisexual and part of growing up is figuring out if you're a top or a sub, readThe General and Dr. Sheppard and its prequel Coming Home (in that order). They're long, fascinating, and really enjoyable. And there's actually romantic, too.

PS: Totally agree about people constantly doing BDSM without romance. I hate it! They all just seem so...empty. Great, now you've got me thinking about it, too. :p

[avalon13.livejournal.com]

Don't mind a bit. We're bonding. I think that a real DSL would be a lot like a Dieter thing. *grins* He'd rough you up and then kiss away your tears. Also, we can't forget the whole 'in Prison, the weak are the bitches' thing. That seems to be a favourite too. It's not DSL exactly, but it's like a related cousin twice removed. I'm sorry, but normal people, when turned into sex slaves and treated like shit, only love you back when they've gone around the bend. If you're going to do that shit, you've got to do it right, darling. I imagine something littered with reassurances, tender kisses, and a nasty nipple clamp.

Yes, try manna's

[(Anonymous)]

I agree, it is the best s/m and much more. I have written a bit about it

Rose Red