Bibles in School and Incest

[maderr]

The Case For Teaching the Bible

Should Incest Be Legal?

Though I have much to say on both matters, I am neitiher in the mood to risk offending people nor capable of being terribly lucid right now.

I will say in passing that I thought it just ever so slightly obnoxious that one of her reasons the Bible was better than Shakespeare was that more wars had been fought over it.

As to incest - I don't have lustful thoughts for my siblings but whatever works. Seriously, the article is barely even about that. Sadly. I like how because gays want marriage and related rights that the world is going to fall into a void of incestual polygamous evilz0r if it's permitted across the board.

Too much fucking free time in the world.

Comments

[zeffy-amethyst.livejournal.com]

In my corner this is me.

How does anyone have the time or the energy to write up something like that? And incest....legal? HUH?

[raielchan.livejournal.com]

" State laws against bigamy, same-sex marriage, adult incest, prostitution, masturbation, adultery, fornication, bestiality, and obscenity are ... called into question by today's decision," wrote Justice Antonin Scalia, in a withering dissent he read aloud page by page from the bench. "


I'm very worried about the possibility of any of those becoming legal.

[mzcalypso.livejournal.com]

You never know... polygamy is in the Bible, and comes highly recommended. I forget how many women some of those geezers had. If we're going to go back to the Old Testament whole-hog (whoops, no-hog, if we're going to be literal it's no pork, no shrimp, no cotton/linen fabric...) then it's wives and concubines time. Margaret Atwood was horribly accurate.

[avalon13.livejournal.com]

don't forget incest. The bible seemed very big on incest.

[raielchan.livejournal.com]

Well, the no shrimp thing would be the hard part.

[mechante-fille.livejournal.com]

Bible thing: I minored in religion in college, at a Catholic school, and none of the classes were teaching doctrine. At least one course in religion or philosophy was required, but all the profs in the department were among the favorites in the school, and many of the students weren't Catholic. If they could offer classes like that (Comparative Religion, Ethics, Love, Women and Religion, etc.) that would be really cool. I would worry, though, about who was teaching the classes...

Jailed for incest? Huh. I suppose I knew it was actually illegal, and irl it seems a very odd thing... but it never really occurred to me that people would be convicted and jailed for it. That guy who slept with his step-daughter could have just lost everything in a nasty, public divorce and that woulda taught him. And maybe loosing his cop job. Taking space in over crowded jails, and taking him out of the employment/consumer/taxpayer loop seems wasteful. Doesn't sound like he was a danger to society at large.

[mzcalypso.livejournal.com]

Oh, this thing again. Gah.

If comparative religion could be taught in schools--the Bible presented on an equal footing with the Dhammapada and some of the Buddhist Sutras, (lots of Buddhists in the world... the only religion that has not motivated people to war, what a notion) the Koran, the Bhagavad-Gita, a book on Taoism and Greco-Roman mythology, Black Elk Speaks, the Book of the Hopi, comprehensive tomes on Wicca and African religious systems and all other sorts of religion... yes, absolutely, wonderful. Let's demonstrate to everyone that there are hundreds of interesting ways to bring the idea of divinity down to a level that humans can grasp.

Or if one were to teach how the bible verses have been used as a political tool--been chosen selectively and interpreted so as to support various political aims--sure. Let's explain to people how Solomon and his umpty-dozen wives and porcupines somehow can be twisted around into one-man-one-woman. Quite a contortionist's feat! By all means, teach how the Bible was used first to justify slavery and then to justify abolition. Explain how, despite Jesus' changing water into wine, some supposedly Christian sects ban all alcoholic beverages.

But teaching any one religion as though it is an inseparable part of our Constitution? No. That is not America.

Incest... Jeez, the polls must be making Karl Rove very unhappy if they're hauling out the sexual phobias. Scalia seems to be a very strange man, and his remarks on orgies some time back (apparently he's in favor of 'em) make me wonder just what sort of perv he is. Re the incest case they mentioned... they did not state how long the jerk had been sexually involved with the girl, nor how old she was when it started. There may be more to the case than they chose to present. Time has become something of a neocon whore, and that whole article was nothing but a bunch of hot-button buzzwords designed to whip up the knee-jerk religious reactionaries. I know too many glbt parents--adopted, pre-coming-out, and baster-baby moms--to think that the children gay parents are in more danger than those bred by rigid, authoritarian, abusive heterosexual parents. If I remember correctly, there are now more kids in single-parent homes than in 'traditional' nuclear families... so calling that the 'norm' may slightly inaccurate.

The sex-toy ban absolutely nonplusses me. If you're trying to make sure your kid will survive adolescence and live to produce healthy granchildren, it makes a lot more sense to give your 14-year-old daughter a vibrator and a book on STDs than a lecture on abstinence. And condoms to adolescent sons.

But then again, you only have to look at those raving nutbars who don't want to immunize their daughters against HPV to realize that none of this is about logic or compassion. They could catch it from their lawfully wedded husbands and quite a few girls probably have.

No matter how clever the human race gets when it comes to making toys and weapons, we don't seem to be very good at developing wisdom.

[mechante-fille.livejournal.com]

Comparative religion classes in school would promote tolerance and understanding across cultures, as well. I think maybe teachers would need a separate certification, or something, though... *worries about them mucking it up*

it makes a lot more sense to give your 14-year-old daughter a vibrator and a book on STDs than a lecture on abstinence. And condoms to adolescent sons.
Couldn't help but point out your unintentional double standard there. ^_^ Maybe give them both condoms and vibrators?

HPV. You know, I thought the same thing, and then sat down to watch a news segment with health professionals from both sides. I expected the 'con' woman to be... dismissable, but she brought up some interesting points. Most of which I've forgotten. But the 'pro' professional, while maintaining that she believes the vaccine to be safe, did admit that vaccines with more testing than this one have later been found to have negative side affects. Thinking about giving half of our young population something that could potentially harm them gave me pause...

[avalon13.livejournal.com]

I find it very funny that they're brining up the incest issue now when we're technically descended from the same 2 people. In the end, is the whole world not a cesspit of inbreeding?

[mzcalypso.livejournal.com]

Shhh... we don't talk about that. Or about how Cain went off after bashing his bro, and found a wife somewhere else.

[alice_montrose]

I have my own take on incest. You see, biologically it will have a genetic effect future generations (which is why every farmer knows inbreeding is wrong). Plus kids shouldn't have to suffer the consequences for who their parents slept with. So, basically, what I'm saying is that I'm fine with it, as long as no kids result. (I do confess to having a minor fetish for m/m incest, especially when a specific pair of hot twins are involved.)

However, I believe that most people still look matters (and among them incest, homosexuality, etc.) from a religious perspective. As long as there will be religion condemning it, then society will do the same and laws will reflect what society thinks. It's all basically a matter of morals. And while people may start thinking outside the box and accept gay marriage and sexual minorities, incest has always been more-or-less frowned upon, especially when there's a minor involved (which is the worst kind) or when it's a het pair (see the kids issue). So I don't see any great change in that direction any time soon.

[mzcalypso.livejournal.com]

I don't like incest in any way, shape, or form. There are two valid arguments against it--the genetic consequences of inbreeding being the worst. The other is that if one believes that enslaving another is a bad idea--particularly involuntary enslavement--there is no way that a child has the strength of maturity or position to refuse sexual advances from a family member, and I'm even talking about siblings. A kid who grows up into adulthood and then forms intimate bonds with a family member has lost the important step of growing up and out of the family of origin. That's a significant piece of becoming an independnt, functional adult. I've seen too many clients who'd been injured by family sexual abuse to see incest as anything other than a major violation of boundaries. The Woody Allen case was probably the most well-publicized. He may not have been married to Mia Farrow, but her adopted daughter was very young when he met her--and in my eyes that was emotional incest and pederasty.

There are exceptions to the incest thing, sure. Step-sibs brought together by the parents' marriage--got no problem with that, though I expect it'd be a hairtangle for the parents. Fantasy stuff--well, it's sure not my fantasy but it doesn't hurt anyone. But in RL... there are over 6 billion people on the planet who are not related to most of the others. Surely that's a big enough pool that anyone can find somebody with a little genetic variation.

[alice_montrose]

Fantasy, yes. There are many things I read and might even write at some point that I would refrain from in RL. And I'm willing to bet it's the same with most writers, really. Exploring your darkest fantasies and all. Which is why i am fine with incest (again, as long as kids are not an issue) in writing. As for RL... well, I try hard not to judge people. But the truth is, most incest cases I heard about included minors and pedophilia, and I'm really against those so you can draw your own conclusions.

That being said, I am not even vaguely attracted to any of my family members. And really, spending so much time with them is a way to find out most of their flaws. I'm afraid I'm somewhat picky when it comes to men and women I might go out with, and family would be a wee bit too close to home.

That being said, fun fact. According to the Orthodox Church, I can marry my fourth degree cousin without much of a hussle. For anything closer I'd need a special dispensation. That no marrying your relatives to the ninth inlaw thing? You should see the way they count. *rolls eyes*

[mechante-fille.livejournal.com]

Hm, interesting. In the majority of the United States, it is not illegal to marry your first cousin. Some make a special exception for double cousins, though. Like if two sisters marry two brothers, and the children of each couple want to marry, they cannot since they are genetically siblings. And, apparently, that level of incest doesn't impact the bloodlines much. Einstein's parents, I believe, were cousins.

*watches too much Nova*

[alice_montrose]

Romanians = 80% Orthodox Christians. So things are still pretty old-fashioned.

The question of impacting the bloodlines occurs after several generations. Like it was with European nobility, and royalty in particular. At a certain point they had gotten so inbred that it was beginning to show (sickly children, idiots, etc).

[aqua-eyes.livejournal.com]

I'd say the worrying thing about incest becoming legal is the inbreeding aspect.